On the morning of the 17th November, a UK-owned F-35B crashed into the sea while flying from HMS Queen Elizabeth. The pilot ejected safely but there is now a scramble to retrieve the wreckage of the aircraft. Here we look at the options available and the challenges involved.
Reliable sources say that the accident occurred during take-off and the pilot was recovered very close to the carrier. The Daily Mail reported that the pilot was “left dangling from the edge of the HMS Queen Elizabeth because the lines of his parachute became caught on edge of flight deck.” Official sources would not confirm or deny this detail but it would suggest the pilot was very fortunate. Accidents on take-off are especially dangerous but whether trapped in a sinking aircraft or having ejected, naval aviators also face the serious risk of being run over by the carrier.
The British-made Martin Baker US16E ejector seat that equips the F-35 includes 3 airbags that inflate in a two-stage process to protect the head and neck of the pilot, wearing the heavy helmet packed with technology. The F-35B variant has a feature that will also eject the pilot automatically if it detects that the vertical-lift fan has failed (most serious during vertical landing but the fan is also in use during rolling take off). Loss of downward thrust from the fan would cause the aircraft to pitch down sharply, faster than the pilot could react to pull the ejection handle manually. This will save the pilot by operating when the aircraft is still close enough to horizontal for safe ejection. Of course, this is not necessarily what happened in this incident and the pilot could have pulled the handle himself when experiencing mechanical problems. Despite the brilliance of modern seat design, ejection from a fast jet is always a traumatic experience due to the sudden G forces.
The exact location the aircraft sank is therefore known precisely. Its position on the seabed may, however, take time to pinpoint. The Levantine Sea, in which the jet was lost, varies in depth but averages 1,500m. An airframe does not sink vertically like a stone and assuming it was mostly intact, likely ‘glided’ as it descended, taking it some distance from the ditching point, depending on the depth of water.
The UK has asked for US assistance with the recovery effort, there would have been no hesitation as the US would be keen to protect the secrets of the F-35 and understand the cause of the accident. UK defence salvage is managed by the Salvage and Marine Operations (SALMO) team with most of the capability provided by private contractor James Fisher Defence. Much of the equipment is based at Faslane in Scotland and would take time to assemble and arrive on the scene in the eastern Mediterranean.
The US Navy Supervisor of Salvage and Diving (SUPSALV) has equipment prepositioned at bases around the world as part of its Emergency Ship Salvage Material (ESSM) System. The nearest ESSM base is in Rota, Spain and will likely be the initial source of assistance for the joint operation to raise the jet. The RN’s three Hydrographic survey ships are capable of mapping the seabed and locating wreckage but given the urgency, it is hoped it will be accurately pinpointed using the F-35B’s emergency locator beacon which should activate underwater. The USN’s Towed Pinger Locator (TPL-25) ststem can be flown out and deployed onboard a vessel of opportunity and could precisely establish the position of the wreck while the ELB batteries last.
Wreckage of USN F/A-18F Super Hornet salvaged by USNS Catawba in July 2015. The aircraft crashed in the Gulf on 12 May 2015 due to engine failure shortly after launch from USS Theodore Roosevelt. The crew ejected safely. (Photo: US Navy)
In March 2021 a USN MH-60S Seahawk helicopter was recovered from a depth of 5,800m off the coast of Okinawa, setting the world record for the recovery of a sunken aircraft. The green liquid is the sea-dye markers from the water-logged Search and Recovery bags leaking out. (Photo: US Navy)
The CURV-21 is a sophisticated 3-tonne Cable-controlled Undersea Recovery Vehicle then can operate down to 6,000m. It is equipped with high-definition sonars as well as manipulator arms and has been successfully used in the recovery of several sunken aircraft. (Photo: US Navy)
The USN Towed Pinger Locator (TPL) 25 is sensitive hydrophone capable of locating emergency location pingers on downed military and commercial aircraft at a maximum depth of 6,000m anywhere in the world. (Photo: US Navy)
The Levantine Sea, South of Cyprus. The aircraft was lost somewhere in this area. Average water depths range from approx 200m (white areas) to 3,000m (light blue). (Image: Google Earth /SIO/NOAA/US Navy/NGA/GEBCO)
Dedicated Royal Navy-owned deep-sea diving and salvage capability disappeared when HMS Challenger was axed in 1990. During her short career, she recovered a Sea Harrier from HMS Ark Royal that crashed off Portland. It does not really make financial sense for the RN to maintain its own global diving and salvage capability when commercial vessels or USN assistance is may be called on as required.
Once located, ROVs would be used to attach inflatable bags to the fuselage which are then slowly inflated to raise the wreckage. This operation is obviously considerably more difficult if the airframe is not largely in one piece. The aircraft was likely to have been armed with at least a couple of missiles (ASRAAM) carried either on wingtip pylons or in the internal weapons bay which could also complicate recovery. After being brought to the surface the airframe may be landed in nearby Cyprus for examination.
In March 2021 SUPSALV retrieved a Seahawk helicopter lying 3.6 miles below waters off the coast of Okinawa, breaking its depth record for recovery of sunken aircraft. The British SALMO organisation successfully recovered a Lynx helicopter flying from HMS Richmond that crashed off the east coast of the US back in June 2002. Sadly two aircrew were lost in the accident but the wreck was recovered from 4,000m down, enabling investigators to identify a serious engine defect that was subsequently remedied across the entire Lynx fleet.
Parts of a Japanese F-35A that crashed in 1,500 meters of water in April 2021 were recovered although not the flight data recorder. This aircraft hit the water at high speed and was shattered into many pieces. These examples suggest there can be high confidence the British F-35 will eventually be recovered. The highly classified nature of an aircraft that is the centerpiece of western defence technology does add an additional pressure to expedite the salvage operation.
Russia has assets that could potentially find and recover wreckage and would certainly be keen to retrieve even a small part of an F35 that would reveal highly classified aspects of its design. The Main Directorate of Deep-Sea Research (GUGI) is a separate organisation from the Russian Navy and has the world’s largest fleet of covert manned deep-sea vessels. This includes oceanographic ‘research’ vessels and nuclear submarine motherships for deep-diving mini-submarines. They are mostly based in the Arctic Circle at Olenya Bay, in the Kola Peninsula. Closer to the scene, GUGI operates RV Seliger, an oceanographic and spy ship based in the Black Sea which carries ROVs and UUVs.
The area of the crash site is likely to be patrolled by NATO surface ships and submarines until the aircraft is recovered. Even if the Russians could locate the wreckage it would be virtually impossible to interfere undetected and any attempt to do so would cause an international incident. Either way, it is certain that Russian naval and air assets which are plentiful in the eastern Mediterranean will take a close interest in the recovery operation.
Sooner or later an F-35 could be lost over land where protecting the wreckage and retrieval might actually be more difficult than from the deep ocean. The CSG does have its own organic rescue capability in the form of the Joint Personnel Recovery (JPR) unit. Merlins of 845 NAS can deliver Royal Marines trained to extract downed pilots and recover sensitive technology from enemy-held territory. Of course, whether this mission could be successfully carried out would depend on the tactical situation on the ground at the time.
Contrary to some reports, HMS Queen Elizabeth has not remained at the site of the accident and her programme for the final leg of the deployment will continue as planned before she returns to Portsmouth in less than three weeks’ time. F-35 flying continues from the ship and at RAF Marham.
‘ The F-35B variant has a feature that will also eject the pilot automatically if it detects that the vertical-lift fan has failed .’ Could turn out to be a faulty sensor giving a false warning. I’m sure there’ll be plenty of speculation but in the end we’ll just have to wait for the report.
Could be a clue they mention for good reasons as any engine failure could mean F-35B flights suspended till more detail is known.
I would imagine they thought of this. In fly-by-wire they have 3 computers in case one fails. So if there are 3 sensors, the system will only eject the pilot if at least two send a signal that the lift fan has failed. If one is faulty & sends an erroneous signal, the system should ignore it (and flag it for the engineers to replace).
I’m just guessing but it makes sense.
Its a combat jet not an airliner where they can have 5 computers for redundancy.
I under stand the F-35 has a single major computer which combines all the ‘communications, sensors, electronic warfare, guidance and control, cockpit and helmet displays. They would be a number of different processors like any phone or desktop has including graphics and mathematical units This describes the next generation for use from 2023. The existing ICP is around 15 years old. https://www.l3harris.com/all-capabilities/high-performance-integrated-core-processor-icp
Even the Chinook has two digital flight control computers for redundancy. I would expect the F35 to have at least a minimum of two as well!
erm…. The F-16 from the 70’s has multiple analogue Flight Control systems bud.
The link you provided is for an Integrated Core Processor dude. Is that not just to run the displays and comms? This isn’t the only computer in an F35…
I was referring to the flight control system having multiples for redundancy only as an example of how such systems often work, especially for events happening too quickly for pilot intervention (e.g. the flight controls of an aircraft deliberately made unstable to enhance manoeuvrability).
A logic gate to action an event should 2 of 3 sensors send a signal doesn’t require a 30lb computer. Heck, I’m not an engineer and I could bash one up that’s the size of a matchbox.
Quite frankly, if the auto-eject (100% guaranteed loss of the jet and potential to cause permanent, career ending injury to a highly trained pilot) system DOESN’T have a redundancy like this, then someone needs to go to prison for negligence.
“communications, sensors, electronic warfare, guidance and control, cockpit and helmet displays.” Was a quote from L3Harris the electronics maker. Of course you are correct on how it works for civilian planes and thats what I would have thought for latest military fast jets too. But its what they say and could imagine redundancy in other means . Ejection seat is one of them. https://www.militaryaerospace.com/computers/article/16709227/f35-jet-fighters-to-take-integrated-avionics-to-a-whole-new-level
I would like to think I can prepare before I’m fired out the dam plane, automatically sounds awful…you might not be straight and tensed up ready…
http://www.hisutton.com/images/Ru_GUGI_940.jpg
Linky……. http://www.hisutton.com/Unbuilt_Russian_Spy_Subs.html
Another capability we need to invest in, but won’t.
Another new article from Mr Sutton……….
http://www.hisutton.com/Russian-Spy-Submarine-BS-64.html
The last thing Britain’s stretched defence budget should be used for.
The undercurrent here is that every F-35 that crashes in a vaguely accessible location is going to have to recovered. Get your credit card ready.
A parochial view on a site awash with similar parochial views.
The most sensible thing said here for a long time
Don’t panic, don’t panic ! Morning Cap
Your ‘thing’ is the submarine service , No?
That’s Deep 32 I think?
Thank you for the nice article summarising options available for recovery.
The recovery of the Sea Hawk from a depth of nearly 6 km is impressive!
Yeah but it’s not like humans went down, you could do that job anywhere in the world from a tv screen.
The deepest successful salvage operation is the raising of the wreckage of a US Navy transport aircraft from the floor of the Phillipine Sea, some 5,638 m (18,500 ft) below the surface, on 21 May 2019. The operation was carried out by a team from the US Navy Supervisor of Salvage and Diving (SUPSALV) using the deep-sea research ship RV Petrel.
The salvage operation was reportedly carried out using one of the US Navy’s Cable-controlled Undersea Recovery Vehicles (CURV-21). The team’s base of operations was the RV Petrel, a deep-sea research ship owned by the late Paul G Allen (co-founder of Microsoft), which was leased by the US Navy for this mission.
The aircraft recovered was a C-2A Greyhound that went down with the loss of its pilot and two other crew on 22 November 2017. Eight other passengers and crew survived the water landing. It was flying a logistics mission from Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni in Japan to the USS Ronald Reagan.
I checked a few of the online ship tracking websites to see if there were any clues about the area north of the Port Said. I dont have a subscription so there was a limit to what detail you can see but of interest was ‘3 auxiliary vessels’ grouped tightly together in an area around 100nm directly north of Port Said. That maybe be unrelated and its out of the normal shipping routes from the Canal ( which is where a carrier would be launching and recovering planes) and if a guard ship is required in general area some sort of light vessel or tug would suffice, as its reachable from British bases on Cyprus . Also I note some have suggested the area is much deeper water south of Crete , but that would take around 24 hrs to reach after leaving canal and the stories say it happened not long after leaving the Canal.
It’s absolutely vital that an unmanned undersea vehicle is not allowed to be used by another 3rd party to recover anything from the crash site. This is especially so with regards to the aircraft’s skin, which uses embedded radar absorbent materials. If they get a sample of the skin, they will be able to test it and work out the frequencies and the power levels that the RAM works at. Thereby, allowing them to work out when a radar will be able to detect a “clean” F35 that isn’t using the radar cross section magnifiers (Luneberg Lenses)!
Yup, Been saying it since it happened. China will be on this in every way too, lets see how it all turns out.
China ? You do realise that it is the eastern Med. Couldnt be more difficult for China to do if it was designed like that
Yes China, You are assuming I said something here about sending assets to the area, which I clearly did not. China has managed to obtain top secret details on virtually every Military Tech, not to mention Industry for Decades. Now think about that for a bit and you’ll understand my post above. Maybe.
Yep, China has everything it needs in that area. Money talks.
You have no more information than your namesake .. Horatio Pugwash.
My dear chap, didn’t you know, Duker knows everything ?
I dont . But I also dont say this sort of h-wash ‘China has managed to obtain top secret details on virtually every Military Tech, not to mention Industry for Decades….’
So you actually believe that China hasn’t ? you actually do ? dear o deary me.
They why are they building copies and updated versions of old Russian jets if they have all this tech. Y-20… from IL76 updated J-20 …Mig 1.44 development prototype ‘Some Russian military analysts believe that the Chinese fifth generation Chengdu J-20 drew heavy inspiration from or was fundamentally based on the MiG 1.44, citing similarities in its canards, tail section, and “duck like” aerodynamic design’
Sure they have moved the intakes to the side from underneath, but they history for that with the JF-17 which started as the J-7 Mig 21 copy which with Grumman help some decades back to moved the front intake to side.
CHINA’S NEW CARRIER-CAPABLE STEALTH FIGHTER’S
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43323/chinas-new-carrier-capable-stealth-fighters-canopy-is-its-most-intriguing-feature ?quality=85&width=1440&quality=70
Thats just a Mig 29K ‘development’ too. Most changes were intakes were moved forward and the cockpit reshaped ( BAE wanted to much the same back in the 90s for Tornado GR4 upgrade) and fins angled But all the other features are essentially same length and wingspan but with a weapons bay added to the ‘tunnel between the engines’ The soviet era fighter planes all had a central structural frame as a spine between cockpit and tail sections which make changes outside that within Chinas existing technology. They could start from scratch and take 15 years like everyone else does.
Many similar level changes were made to make their J-7 Mig21 copy into the JF-17 ( they had Grumman help , which we know about, with changeover from nose to side intakes)
You just answered your own question and, confirmed what I said about obtaining Military Tech for decades, sorry if I rattled your cage but, that’s what they do.
What western fighters have the copied to that extent.
China has all the info it needs,the USA has lots of anti USA military personnel who actively sell info to China.
On another note 47 Squadron RAF, anyone know what will happen to it once our Super Hercules are given away oops I meant sold. 47sq are the UK special forces RAF Herc squadron with 28 trained air crews, will they transfer to the A400? and can that plane really be as great in the tactical role as Super Hercs are? And the Hercs are still in production after 60YEARS..We should just buy another 24 Super Hercules aircraft as we already have them and crews and very valuable knowledge and training setup ect ect, anyone agree? Or not agree?.
Not going to happen.. Anyway this is a Senior Service site, lets keep it topical
Ok, What does “Split the main brace” mean?
Ah Right thanks, one more. Are these correct for ships- “fore” front, “aft” back “, midships” middle, “port” right “starboard “left? 🤙
Nothing ever stays on topic here.
Isn’t that a good thing though, I learn allot.
£100m F-35 fighter jet crashed into the Med while taking off from HMS Queen Elizabeth because the cheap rain cover hadn’t been taken off properly https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10236491/100m-F-35-fighter-jet-crashed-cheap-rain-cover-hadnt-taken-off.html
https://theaviationist.com/2021/11/24/f-35b-crash-cover-possible-cause/
The Mirror reported it was shot down by an F14 launched from Iran !
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/24/raf-f-35-jet-crashed-sea-plastic-rain-cover-left/
yeah, the earth is flat, covid doesn’t exist and the guy works down the chip shop swears he’s Elvis, don’t panic, don’t panic! https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/carrier-f-35-crash-potentially-caused-by-rain-cover-being-left-on/
who believes anything crap coming from UK anyway?
And the Mail online shows the moment when the Iranian F-14 strike.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10255359/Footage-emerges-moment-F-35-jet-topples-end-HMS-Queen-Elizabeths-runway.html
I won’t believe such fake video? All British cover up!.
Doesnt make sense. A carrier deck has dozens of people either on deck or the flying control bridge overseeing the takeoff.
It was shot down by a UFO from Mars with a plastic cover.
For want of a nail, the shoe was lost. For want of a shoe, the horse was lost. For want of a horse, the rider was lost. For want of a rider, the battle was lost. For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost, And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
Not many nails in an F35.
pompey news, what total rubbish
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defence/royal-navy-cheap-rain-cover-thought-to-be-responsible-for-crash-of-f-35-from-hms-queen-elizabeth-3470851
another nail in the coffin
blame it on the Smurfs
Have we found it yet
Nope…it was picked up by the Russian sub as it was sinking and tugged away.
Wow, $115 million down the drain thanks to just one crash.
I wonder if they will replace it. For $115 million how many A&E departments could be saved this Omicron Coronavirus winter?
Reckon you should post that on the UKDJ site, it would be fun reading all the regular’s replies!
Agreed. Without sound defence there will be no need for A&E departments, or anything else. Those of us serving during the Cold War need no reminding of this.
Those who experienced the cold war would know that it was an ideological struggle with the use of military as the last resort.
It was won ultimately not by fighting but but with economical power, the Soviet spent all their resources in the military and eventually led to economy collapse.
We are all here as well, there is no escape we know where you post.
Well, that makes a lot of sense………….. not
The way the NHS pishes away money . 115 mil could probably buy every doctor and nurse a new biro for writing patients notes up with. Mind you it would be a cheap dodgy biro and they would only get one each that had to last for 6 months…
Probably…… I was looking at the latest Japanese Defence spending Increase earlier. it’s quite an eye opener to see just how much equipment they purchase for such a low % GDP. yes yes yes, I know they don’t have V’s or QE’s but just take a look at their inventory guys….
Japan GDP is much bigger, like comparing Apple with Orange
Assuming the above facts are right, and along with the frequent comments on this site that Defense funds would be better spent on the NHS and social programmes, I am curious that nobody on this excellent forum questions why UK GDP is so low. This also came up when Australia was discussed, a country with a far smaller population. I assume it can’t be for the same reasons that the British shipbuilding industry and many others died after dominating the world. I read recently that if UK joined the US, it would be the poorest state per capita, poorer than Mississippi.
Much of the UK’s wealth lies off shore !!!!
UK defence budget has as one of its largest components ‘depreciation’
Its really not spending its just an accounting figure for loss of value of assets used in business its listed as £ 7.2 bill compared to £12.8 bill for personnel Australia and US dont use that method but only show actual spending
Japan has done the opposite, to keep the defence spending at 1% of GDP for political reasons has moved many items into other budgets. Id assume they are bringing them back into the defence budget now
Britain has the second highest GDP in Europe, after Germany so I dont know where you get the ‘poor from’
That UK comparison with Mississippi or Alabama wasnt oranges with oranges, they used ‘adjusted’ figures to factor in cost of living , its essentially more expensive living costs in UK. But didnt adjust US states living costs No, Britain Is Not Poorer Than Alabamahttps://time.com/3198225/britain-poorest-state/
U.K. GDP per capita is actually higher than Japan. It’s important to remember that a countries GDP is a function of productivity and is actual measured in a number of possible ways, so depending how you measure it different Results can be achieved. It can be measured as value of output ( total value of goods and services), the total value of everyone’s income, or the total value of a nations expenditures.
Good points . It can be misleading to use adjusted GDP per capita to compare countries. Only broad comparisons work comparing other countries and a GDP is better used to see how ‘change is happening’ within an economy , sometime that not good changes.
I think you simplified this rather too easily but I get what you are saying from the figures viewpoint.
Military expenditure as percentage of gross domestic product (GDP)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/266892/military-expenditure-as-percentage-of-gdp-in-highest-spending-countries/
Japan just excludes many military related costs from its defence budget to get to the ‘political’ 1% figure UK works in other direction to add things to get over 2%
20? Smillion Trillion,just a number..
The nhs does not supply biros for staff. Which considering a pen is a vital part of every clinicians kit has always seemed a bit crap to me (losing or having your pen nicked halfway through a shift is a bugger). It’s why drug companies reps always give out pens if they want to talk to nurses ( nurses will always go out of their way to get a new pen).
i Looked it up you can get 50 black bics for a tenner so 20p each. So it’s only around £500,000 to get every member of staff a biro every 6 months or so. Bargain, I’m going to put it in the next staff consultation on how can we stop you pissing off.
115 million does not buy you a lot in healthcare terms, 1 million will get you around 12 acute hospital beds for a year so 100 million will give you an extra 1200ish bed years. That only gets you the basics of nursing care, hotel services and emergency dr cover ( the standing stuff). It does not get you treatment, diagnostics, surgery or drugs etc.
The problem is giving the NHS loads of cash all of a sudden does not work, it’s a people organisation and 1 nurse or Dr can only do so many interventions if there are no more Drs and nurses it matter not how much extra money you give in a year as your capacity ( amount of clinical staff in the talent pool) is dependent on how much was spent 10 years ago as that’s how long it takes to make expert Drs and nurses.
the government are now throwing cash at the NHS, but cash does not diagnose and treat people, health care professionals do that and that’s the resource this nation is short on.
With such a long production delay in securing the UK’s F35bs I wonder if they’d consider fleshing out a QE/PoW air wing with Harriers..mebbe all those UK castoffs sitting in the desert could be repainted in RN colours? Or have they been cannibalized by now?
Cannibalised , since thats the reason the USMC bought them
Ha Ha good discussion that’s all I wanted, sorry for being such a provocateur by nature. But I do think it important to notice that different countries try to maximize (like the UK and various other NATO countries) or minimize (like China and Japan) the official figures on how much they spend on defense.
And we all realize that counting things in US Dollars is not necessarily the only or best way.
On a slightly different but linked subject, the USS George HW Bush has been seen taking aboard (by crane) the Boeing MQ-25 T1 Stingray trials aircraft. It is the start of the deck familiarisation and then flight trials. This is a major step for giving the USN a purpose built tanker aircraft that frees up F/A-18E/Fs from the buddy tanker role and putting them back on their primary tasks. Fingers crossed the trials go without a hitch? We have had the discussion before, but this aircraft is basically what we need to boost the range of our F35Bs, plus it’s also earmarked for ISR roles. But crucially meets the MoD’s RFI requirement for the EMALS/arrested landing specification.
Looking at the aircraft being craned aboard and then housed in the hangar. I was wondering if the aircraft could be double stacked on top of each other, using something like a car lift? There seems to be plenty of room, as they aren’t as tall as a F18. This got me thinking about our QE class carriers which have really high hangars, so that they can accommodate a Chinook without taking off blades/rotor heads/aft pylon etc. By double stacking UAVs it would make better use of the available space and perhaps more can be carried.